Shannon Huffman Polson, a expert and worn navy pilot, experienced early on the vogue to originate grit. At 19, she used to be the youngest lady to summit Denali, North The usa’s highest peak. Then she overcame many obstacles to flee U.S. Military attack helicopters. This day Polson coaches of us on creating grit of their careers and areas of work. Constructing it like a muscle, the direction of begins with recognizing your myth and dealing out your core scheme. And she explains the scheme in which it’s peaceable doable to toughen even at some level of a plague whilst you’re extraordinarily pressured and strained. Polson is the author of the contemporary e-book The Grit Element: Courage, Resilience, and Management within the Most Male-Dominated Group within the World.
CURT NICKISCH: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Commercial Review. I’m Curt Nickisch.
Concepts like resilience and grit had been in vogue in most up to date years. But it’s worthy more uncomplicated to exalt them whilst you’re flying excessive, and situations are ravishing. It’s reasonably another to evaluate about looking to be gritty when the sector is including contemporary stresses left and appropriate, and likewise you abilities setbacks. Let’s face it – for many of us, this pandemic has been hectic – and it might maybe presumably merely no longer let up anytime soon.
Well this present day’s guest is anyone who is conscious of regarding the total more or much less mental and emotional fortitude so many folks consultants reveal we would favor – nonetheless maybe fewer of us in level of fact *maintain.
She’s the youngest lady ever, at 19, to climb Denali, the very ideally suited mountain in North The usa. She used to be one of many first girls folks to pilot the Apache attack helicopter the US Military. And she’s launched a a success company and consulting occupation, too.
And fortuitously – she says we can judge regarding the mammoth belief of grit as a series of smaller items. And at a time like this – you might maybe presumably presumably judge about rebuilding, refocusing, and deciding what you in level of fact need from life. Deem of it as a reset to your scheme to changing into grittier.
Our guest is Shannon Huffman Polson. She’s the author of The Grit Element: Courage, Resilience, and Management within the Most Male-Dominated Group within the World. Shannon, thanks so worthy for joining us.
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: It’s so ravishing to be with you, Curt. Thanks for having me.
CURT NICKISCH: So first and main, what does grit suggest to you?
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: , the vogue that I in level of fact maintain defined it over the past years is a dogged resolution within the face of complex situations. Angela Duckworth has defined grit as passion and perseverance towards prolonged length of time targets, which I also adore very worthy, the fervour and the perseverance. I will reveal in this present day’s ambiance, the place the future is amazingly risky, the place the horizon is mainly unclear, and the place we’re all working in these environments which might maybe presumably be scheme more ambiguous, I in level of fact maintain a slight preference for my absorb definition.
CURT NICKISCH: Yeah. xSo let’s discuss your individual abilities and dealing out of it. Love, the place did it reach from for you?
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: Well, you realize, it’s one thing that I grew up talking about with my dad, especially. It’s a belief and in level of fact the length of time that we would utilize in pushing by laborious things and doing laborious things. And I judge that has change into very worthy an essential phase of who I’m and how I’ve approached life and challenges. It’s one thing also that I understood as I got older that no longer all people had the publicity to, and a great deal of, many folks had been looking out out.
CURT NICKISCH: What did your father expose you? Love, how did he instill this in you?
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: Just a few things. I judge most of the programs that, as each fogeys and as managers, in level of fact, we’re in a spot to relay a message or a belief to either our young of us or the of us that we’re working with, is by experiences and by questions.
There’s a myth that I expose, which used to be being on the soccer discipline, and my fogeys, unnecessary to reveal, had been there cheering. And this used to be no longer the more or much less hyper aggressive soccer that folks play now. This used to be Girls’ Membership soccer. I judge I used to be nine years traditional. And there used to be a young lady, we had been all about nine or ten taking part in offense on the masses of team, and she would have a tendency to upright crush the discipline, and we would constantly phase like the Crimson Sea as she came charging down the discipline, and she would ranking on scheme every single time.
And I purchase into consideration after one game, my dad requested me the inquire, why don’t you upright flee again at her? And I concept that used to be the crazier belief. However the next time that we performed towards that team, she came charging down my side of the discipline, and I went charging again at her, and we collided at fleshy urge within the heart of a discipline in Anchorage, Alaska, and all of the soccer fogeys had been soundless, which unnecessary to reveal is what happens, and she never charged my side of the discipline yet again.
And you realize, phase of that, I judge there is a mix of things there, nonetheless phase of it used to be the willingness to head into one thing that used to be timid of, that I knew used to be going to be complex, that I knew used to be, if so, going to hurt. And being keen to cease it anyway.
CURT NICKISCH: You confronted this within the navy the place you had been spearheading, appropriate, that’s virtually a navy length of time, appropriate, to spearhead an attack. And naturally, the tip of the spear is the hardest phase, the phase that has to interrupt by first. Uncover me about which maintain of facing obstacles as an aspiring pilot within the U.S. Military, how you charged into them, appropriate, and didn’t stand apart.
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: Yeah, and likewise you realize, I no doubt didn’t plug into it working out the challenges in come so worthy. I went into the navy and went into Military attack aviation because I needed to cease one thing, and I needed to cease one thing laborious, and I needed to cease one thing animated. And I used to be 21 years traditional. ? I don’t know what you realize whilst you’re 21, nonetheless fortuitously no longer sufficient to dissuade you from what might maybe presumably lie forward.
And so I judge I would reveal I approached it in level of fact more with enthusiasm for the alternative, and enthusiasm for the job. Now, unnecessary to reveal, whereas you ranking into that role, and whereas you ranking into the challenges that you face in that more or much less a role, especially as one of many first girls folks to reach again into the scheme, it used to be a extraordinarily masses of advise, and a extraordinarily masses of non-public of a advise than any that I had learned myself in forward of that level, and a lot much less beef up, a lot much less assurance than I had grown up with, for distinct.
CURT NICKISCH: Yeah. So what did you reach upon along the vogue?
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: Well, I judge as soon as I used to be peaceable an ROTC cadet at Duke College, I used to be an English predominant, and used to be within the Military ROTC, and the realization used to be that I would then ranking my price within the National Guard going forward. The pause of my senior year, so I’m no longer yet graduated, and I’m no longer yet commissioned into the navy, I drove out to Raleigh, North Carolina to fulfill with the relate aviation officer and would ranking my assignment for the years forward. And I purchase into consideration reporting to this colonel, who unnecessary to reveal is maybe in his unhurried 30s, and it sounded like he used to be within the again of this mountainous desk that used to be as huge as the room, with sparkling windows going up the again, and I stood at consideration and saluted, and tried to no longer shake too worthy. And he had me purchase a seat. And we exchanged a pair of pleasantries in a extraordinarily formal non-public of a technique, before the interchange that I would never neglect, when he stopped midsentence, leaned again in his chair, looked down his nostril at me and acknowledged, you note, cadet, that you might maybe presumably never flee an attack plane.
And identified his observation for what it used to be meant to be, which used to be tiny and suggest, because at the time, in 1993, attack plane weren’t delivery to girls folks to flee. But I also understood by that level in my extraordinarily nascent navy occupation, that there are situations when the one thing that you might maybe presumably presumably reveal is, sure, sir, and so I acknowledged, sure, sir. And I went again to the campus of Duke College and to the ROTC detachment and requested a switch out of the National Guard and onto active accountability. After which later that spring, Congress changed the game on that colonel and all people else and lifted the fight exclusion clause for aviation, and the total lot within the stock used to be delivery to girls folks and males to flee. And I reported to Fortress Rucker later that year.
CURT NICKISCH: It is a second the place a quantity of of us would cease. Correct? Or ranking the powers that be?
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: Well, and I cease judge that’s a mammoth piece of what begins this direction of and what’s phase of this ecosystem, as I call it, or your total person side that informs grit, is de facto deciding that you might maybe presumably presumably be going to be the actual person that is accountable of your absorb myth. You are going to be the actual person that decides that your myth will most likely be. You might maybe presumably’t get the raw cloth, nonetheless you might maybe presumably presumably desire how you’re going to utilize that raw cloth. And so many folks don’t cease that, and that’s, I judge, a lost alternative for a series of of us.
CURT NICKISCH: Well, let’s drill down into that belief of committing. Love, how cease you purchase that first step, and don’t alarm, or you don’t judge about what number of playing cards are stacked towards you?
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: I judge it’s in level of fact a level of curiosity on that pause scheme, and level of curiosity on what it’s that your scheme is. And yet again, this goes again into the very first phase of The Grit Element, and the very first phases of the coaching, Going For Grit, is de facto fervent by proudly owning your absorb myth, after which drilling down into core scheme. And whilst you’re fervent by that core scheme, and I don’t suggest upright your why, I suggest, going worthy, worthy deeper than that, whilst you’re fervent by that core scheme, that you might maybe presumably presumably be going to prevail, that you might maybe presumably presumably be going to contribute in this essential scheme, that ability that you can no longer level of curiosity on the obstacles virtually so worthy. And I cease judge it’s a alternative on the place you place your level of curiosity.
CURT NICKISCH: Why is going backwards to mire your self maybe to your absorb myth, your absorb biography so essential?
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: It’s a ravishing inquire, and I hope it’s no longer miring. I hope it’s in level of fact gaining strength. , there’s a quantity of work that has been done around myth and the vogue that we realize data in level of fact is within the non-public of myth. And so going again to non-public sense of our absorb experiences, to attain the areas the place we grew, to attain our strengths, to attain the place we overcame obstacles, change into phase of how we can methodology future challenges, or even contemporary challenges, to return and reveal, hey, watch at this time. I got by this in level of fact laborious time, and I either developed this strength, or I noticed there used to be a technique around this. Going again and doing that work let you to attain programs that you might maybe presumably presumably negotiate the challenges that you’re facing this present day. And that’s in level of fact, in level of fact excessive work.
I judge it’s, it’s no longer upright making sense of the raw cloth that you’re given within the second, nonetheless it no doubt’s going again over your life and asserting, hey, right here’s the raw cloth that I used to be given. Now, what cease I desire that myth to be? Attributable to you ranking to get. You ranking to either reveal, hey, I used to be a victim of this circumstance or this circumstance. Or hey, I used to be in a spot to beat this. I used to be in a spot to push by this.
And whilst you cease that work, and likewise you in deciding what that arc of that myth of your life is going to be, then you definately might maybe presumably borrow from the strengths of that, working out your values, working out the vogue to head forward in reference to those values in a technique that in actual fact strengthens you for what it’s that you might maybe presumably presumably either be facing this present day or what you might maybe presumably be facing in the end.
CURT NICKISCH: your absorb myth in level of fact properly, by now especially. How cease you expose masses of of us that also maybe didn’t maintain the fogeys you had, or the abilities you had rising up, which regarded in level of fact formative and influential? How cease you attend of us desire out what their myth is, so they know what to commit to?
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: Yeah, there’s a series of tactical workouts that I suggest. Certainly one of them is to launch with what’s every so repeatedly known as a jog line, or a lifeline, and taking a watch at your absorb experiences, and in level of fact proudly owning, working out the raw cloth of it, and upright getting that out on paper. But then starting to attain how that relates and informs your core values and your core scheme.
After which there’s a entire masses of reveal that I in level of fact adore on drilling down into core scheme. And I in level of fact distinguish that from scheme because I judge scheme every so repeatedly turns into like a scheme within the again of doing one thing very advise, which is a slight of more superficial than what in level of fact drives you. And right here is handsome deep internal work that takes a whereas. It’s no longer again of the napkin diagnosis. It needs time and discipline to evaluate about and to evaluate about time and yet again.
But I decide to borrow the technique that used to be developed in level of fact by Toyota as a producing deficiency drill down, known as the Five Whys, and quiz your self why you’re doing one thing no longer one time nonetheless 5 situations. And so in level of fact drilling down into that deep, deep why, that’s no longer advise to the job, that’s no longer advise to the duty, nonetheless it no doubt is one thing that is in level of fact linked to who you might maybe presumably presumably be as an particular person, because I judge you’ve got to non-public that in actual fact stable connection that is uniquely your before you might maybe presumably presumably non-public that discover to whatever the duty is, whatever the firm is, whatever the firm’s missions and values and targets.
CURT NICKISCH: Yeah. What’s the fifth why for you?
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: For me, it’s service. And as soon as I used to be frustrated at masses of aspects in, whereas wearing a uniform, if I drilled down the total scheme down, that fifth why is service. It’s serving. And that’s one thing, yet again, it’s one thing that is linked to how I grew up. We made food for of us that didn’t maintain food by our church, and we visited at retirement homes. And that belief of contribution and giving again and serving used to be a extraordinarily mammoth phase of who I’m. And I judge that is, that connecting to that ability that you can in level of fact ranking by situations which might maybe presumably be either complex or frustrating or each.
CURT NICKISCH: Became there a time to your navy occupation the place you confronted obstacles that you recalled that core belief of service and that helped you ranking by them?
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: Yeah, I suggest, right here is, it’s silly, because I’ve like the one instance I in level of fact maintain for right here is maybe one of many least animated, nonetheless also maybe one of many most relatable for a series of of us. But as soon as I first used to be assigned to Fortress Bragg, North Carolina, that used to be my very first accountability assignment, and I reported as soon as I used to be 23 years traditional.
I used to be certified within the Apache helicopter. I used to be furious. I used to be ready to flee and to lead. But as soon as I arrived at Fortress Bragg, there within the regiment within the 229 Assault Aviation Regiment, there had been two battalions. So there’s 120 male pilots, and at age 23 or so, I used to be the one feminine pilot. And I used to be assigned to no longer a platoon the place I might maybe presumably be flying, and in level of fact the utilization of the craft that I had upright learned, nonetheless I used to be assigned as the assistant to the assistant operations officer.
CURT NICKISCH: A desk job.
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: A desk job, precisely. And never upright typing up, as an illustration, operations orders the place you’re in level of fact transferring into the meat of things, nonetheless the appendices to the operations orders. And so I purchase into consideration, and I used to be introduced up believing, and I in level of fact upright concept about this this present day, that I judge my grandpa instructed my dad who instructed me that in case you ranking paid 25 cents to scrub a bathroom, you’d better non-public every single penny of that 25 cents. You cease the one job you might maybe presumably presumably.
And so I did the one job I might maybe presumably at what I used to be doing, and I had mammoth feedback, and I went to the captain I used to be working for, and I acknowledged, listen, sir. I’m going to lift doing the one job I will at this work, nonetheless I marvel when a platoon might maybe presumably delivery up. And that captain checked out me and acknowledged, Lieutenant, the Military doesn’t owe you the leisure.
So I saved on doing my work, after which at some level we had been all introduced in on a Saturday to cease work collectively as an operations store for no apparent scheme. The predominant that we all worked for looked over at me and joked, and he acknowledged, you realize, don’t distress, Lieutenant, you’ll be married by the time you’re 25.
And I didn’t reveal, sure, sir, then, as I had to that colonel in that preliminary interaction again in Raleigh, North Carolina. But I went to observe the main the next week, and I acknowledged, sir, I’m going to lift doing the one job I will at what I’ve been assigned, nonetheless I judge that I will cease more. And he looked more or much less greatly stunned. After which he assigned me one additional accountability after the masses of. And within the slay I took that first flight platoon.
But I judge again on those situations, and I judge regarding the of us that I talk over with, and I in level of fact maintain the chance to talk over with companies across the country and across the sector, and I talk over with of us the total time who don’t know the vogue to beat again when anyone says, the Military doesn’t owe you the leisure, or you’ll be married by the time you’re 25. And to boot they upright judge that’s the place they’re caught.
And I in level of fact take into consideration that there’s another for us to push by those things by proudly owning our myth, by drilling down into core scheme, after which by studying in level of fact to maintain the braveness to quiz for what you want, and to quiz yet again and to quiz yet again, and every single alternative that I had within the navy I had to quiz for. I had to non-public it first, unnecessary to reveal, after which I had to quiz for it. And that’s an essential lesson in that entire direction of as properly.
CURT NICKISCH: How cease you launch working towards grit? How cease you launch changing into better at it? Vivid your myth’s ravishing.
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: Sure.
CURT NICKISCH: Enhance self belief to know what you want and what to shoot for. But then you definately hit those moments the place, you realize, you maintain gotten setbacks, or you might maybe presumably presumably be feeling that there’s one thing to your scheme.
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: Correct.
CURT NICKISCH: How cease you make that, then, at that level?
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: Yeah, that is a ideally suited inquire. And the vogue that I in level of fact maintain organized The Grit Element is in three masses of phases. And the commit section is what we’ve already talked about, proudly owning your absorb myth, drilling all of the vogue down to core scheme.
The second of those three phases is, be taught. The third is, open. And in that second section of studying, there’s about a things which might maybe presumably be in level of fact essential, after which I judge this goes to your inquire. And one of them is creating your team. I call it drawing your circle, for the reason that of us that don’t beef up you could be outside of it. But you maintain gotten to maintain a team. None of us cease this on my own. And I judge that is excessive when situations ranking no longer easy.
CURT NICKISCH: Is that a misunderstanding of grit, is that it’s an particular person quality?
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: I judge every so repeatedly. And I judge some of us who’re in level of fact, maintain this bias towards action and this inclination to non-public distinct that things ranking done, a quantity of us maintain had experiences the place in case you might maybe presumably decide to ranking it done properly, you cease it your self, non-public of thing. And each the mentality and the actuality of that isn’t sustainable. It might maybe well most likely most likely presumably very properly be one thing within the immediate length of time, nonetheless it no doubt’s no longer a sustainable resolution for the prolonged flee.
And I judge whilst you discuss grit, you’re talking about, and this goes again to Angela Duckworth’s definition, passion and perseverance towards prolonged length of time targets, or if it’s dogged resolution, either scheme, there’s a sustainability side to that that has to reach again into play. And you might maybe presumably’t cease it your self. So that you’ve got to originate that team. But there’s also our very advise, and right here’s a separate thing, there are very advise programs that you might maybe presumably presumably originate grid and resilience, and likewise you realize, I borrow a lot from the Military’s master resilience coaching program, which used to be developed at the College of Pennsylvania as phase of their distinct psychology program. There’s a few years and a great deal of years of look at that plug into this. And there are very advise things that you might maybe presumably presumably cease.
But to place it, one of them in a nutshell, to get better at doing laborious things, you maintain gotten to cease laborious things. And it sounds virtually trite to disclose, nonetheless you purchase one step. You difficulty your self a slight of bit more the next time, and a slight of bit more the next time, and a slight of bit more the next time. And that in actual fact is how you originate up what’s in actuality a muscle for grit and resilience. And it’s absolutely one thing that is within the marketplace to every single one of us.
CURT NICKISCH: Hearing it described as a muscle that you toughen makes me marvel what you might maybe presumably reveal to of us that feel like they don’t maintain it, or haven’t developed that muscle strongly sufficient. After which all of a unexpected, they face a mammoth setback, or they face a plague. Their industry closed. They work at house. And to boot they’ve one thing that they haven’t constructed up the muscle for.
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: , I’m listening to that a lot. We’re in this for the prolonged haul. And I judge there used to be before the total lot maybe a perception that, hey, we’ll form out a technique to return to fashioned in about a months, and that’s no doubt no longer going to be the case. And I judge of us are starting to peep that.
There’s a pair of things that I judge are essential. No 1 is to deal along with your self, because I judge you can not retain this dogged resolution every second of every day, and especially whilst you’re drained you’ve got to peep that and be in a spot to, upright like a muscle, appropriate, upright like working out a muscle, you’ve got in an effort to purchase your relaxation days as properly.
The masses of phase is de facto about mindset. Understanding that whilst you’re going by a laborious thing, you might maybe presumably presumably be building your muscle. You might maybe presumably be convalescing. You might maybe presumably be getting stronger. So this time, which is de facto complex for all people, is building that muscle. Going by this time is building that muscle. And know that enables us to negotiate these challenges better. Here is in level of fact very contemporary look at that is coming out on the Navy SEALs, is that the mindset that stress enhances efficiency can in level of fact toughen efficiency.
So I judge we’ve got in an effort to disclose, right here is no longer, to no longer watch at this as essentially a debilitating time, nonetheless to purchase the time that we must forever recharge and to provide ourselves that recovery, nonetheless also realize that right here’s a time that is making us better, if we put it to use in that scheme.
The second phase that I judge is de facto essential on the mindset of right here is, and I call this grounded optimism. I in level of fact judge of this grit triad as past, prove and future, you realize, doing this internal work, undertaking the prove, and taking a watch towards the future. And all of that has to cease be surrounded by what I call grounded optimism. And why grounded?
Vivid that you might maybe presumably presumably ranking by things, is excessive. But having a Pollyannaish outlook might maybe presumably furthermore be lethal. And the myth that each person is conscious of from Jim Collins’ Appropriate To Mountainous, or from masses of sources, is that of Admiral Stockdale, who used to be a prisoner of war in Vietnam for 7 ½ years. And he didn’t know if he would ever be released, when he might maybe presumably be released. He used to be the most ranking officer, so he used to be tortured mercilessly. His legs had been broken. He used to be in solitary confinement. When they within the slay released him, and he used to be within the slay free, and he used to be requested, what made the adaptation between of us that lived and folks that died? He acknowledged, it’s easy. These that died had been the ones who had been optimistic. And that doesn’t seem in finding it irresistible makes sense, except that, in case you’re optimistic in a technique that’s no longer realistic, so you reveal, oh, we’re going to be released by April, or by Easter, after which you’re no longer, or we’re going to be released by the pause of the summer season, after which you’re no longer, that’s devastating.
And I judge about that in this present day’s time. While you happen to take into consideration about of us which might maybe presumably be asserting, oh, we’ll maintain a vaccine by October, and the total lot will return to fashioned, properly, when that doesn’t happen, and I don’t judge very many of us judge this might maybe occasionally merely, that will most likely be devastating. So having a technique more realistic outlook on asserting, we’re going to ranking by this. We’re going to be better for it. However the horizon is peaceable unclear. And being realistic about that I judge is de facto excessive. So those two aspects of mindset are essential within the midst of the advise.
CURT NICKISCH: We’ve talked a lot about creating grit your self and the importance of team.
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: Sure.
CURT NICKISCH: How cease you infuse your absorb team, or a team that you lead, or those you lead with grit?
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: I judge it in level of fact comes all of the vogue down to the ideally suited tenet of management, which I feel about all of the vogue down to my bones is set taking care of your of us, and taking care of your of us methodology working out who they are as folks. It methodology serving to them overcome their challenges.
I judge in a time the place the future appears to be like risky, the place so worthy appears to be like in level of fact amorphous, phase of the alternative for creating grit in a team is to provide them company, and yet again, in items which might maybe presumably be realistic, so this might maybe occasionally very properly be one thing, and I suggest this to each folks and to groups, by the vogue. As a substitute of taking a watch at the prolonged length of time horizon, when we don’t in level of fact know what that horizon will consist of, watch at shorter length of time targets. And celebrate those successes.
So in case you might maybe presumably presumably watch at one thing within the shorter length of time, even week to week or month to month, I suggest, frankly, week to week is maybe to be urged now, because things substitute so worthy, even internal the direction of a month, and celebrate those targets, and gives of us company to purchase action internal a given discipline, that develops the conceitedness, and likewise I judge helps them to beat, I don’t have to utilize the length of time, devastation too without problems, nonetheless the fatigue that comes from no longer vivid the place you’re heading, no longer vivid in case you might maybe presumably presumably presumably place success. So celebrating smaller successes and giving company for those successes is a mammoth scheme to methodology the challenges that every of us are facing appropriate now.
CURT NICKISCH: Shannon, thanks so worthy for coming on the demonstrate to discuss your absorb experiences, and the vogue to make grit for your self.
SHANNON HUFFMAN POLSON: Entirely, Curt. It’s a proper pleasure. Thank so worthy for having me.
CURT NICKISCH: That’s Shannon Huffman Paulson. Her contemporary e-book is, The Grit Element, Courage, Resilience and Management Within the Most Male Dominated Group Within the World. And to listen to more on this topic, strive our episode on Abraham Lincoln and the Energy of Emotional Discipline. That’s episode 731.
This episode used to be produced by Mary Dooe. We ranking technical attend from Rob Eckhardt. Adam Buchholz is our audio product supervisor. Thanks for listening to the HBR IdeaCast. I’m Curt Nickisch.